Lars Kollind

iGaming History, Episode 2 Transcript

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the second episode of the iGaming History podcast. I have the pleasure of being joined today by Lars Kollind, investor and senior advisory board member for MConverts. Lars, welcome to the show.

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Lars Kollind: Thank you so much.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Pleasure having you Lars. For anybody who doesn't know who you are, please give us a short introduction.

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Lars Kollind: I have been in the gaming industry since 2004, so almost twenty-one years. I started with the poker club.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Why did you start with poker?

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Lars Kollind: It was pure chance. We had a group of friends who liked to play poker. We started a small poker club for friends and friends of friends. This was right when the poker boom started. We started getting requests from friends of friends of friends. It just exploded. We had a small, amateur website. I logged into the webpage and saw we had six or seven hundred visitors. Normally we had fifty or sixty. We had to find a new venue every Saturday. It exploded so we started having events on Fridays and Saturdays, then increasing to the middle of the week. I decided to go for this full-time.

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The person sitting across from me in my office, her husband worked for an event company with a venue in the center of Stockholm. The bottom floor was never rented because it had no windows. For us, that sounded perfect. I met him, he showed me the venue. It had twenty-meter ceilings, big chandeliers, a built-in bar, a room perfect for cash games, and another big room for tournaments. We agreed on the rent and moved in. We got sponsorships for tables and chairs. Suddenly I had thirty employees: bar people, dealers. We were poker only. We went from two or three hundred members to over three thousand before we closed in late 2007. We were the absolute biggest in Northern Europe.

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Obviously, things like this come to an end. You will either get robbed or the police will take notice. It came to an end. I had figured it would, so during the last year I launched a poker event company. Our guests were also working for poker companies. They realized this was a perfect venue for VIP events for their online players. I formed a company that did poker events. We expanded to companies like Microsoft and other big brands who wanted to entertain their staff. We did this not only in our venue but in other places after we closed down. That was how I got into the poker world and got to know all these people.

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One morning I woke up and said we need to expand. There is a limit to how many events you can do. We had a big competitor in Sweden. I had an idea: a sports agent for poker players. Back then, young players were sponsored by Full Tilt, PokerStars, and others. These young players didn't understand how to maximize the value of their sponsorship deals. They got paid very little. I approached the top players in Sweden first, then we expanded. At our maximum we had sixty players, including Annette Oberstad and Jamie Gold, the World Series of Poker winner. We had players from all over the world. Our competitor, Poker Royalty, focused purely on the US. We took the European side, LatAm, and those famous players.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: There were two major events in this timeline: the UIGEA and Poker Black Friday. Did you notice any changes when the US regulation came out?

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Lars Kollind: Not at all. The poker industry didn't really care. Full Tilt was just blasting out. In the US, they couldn't care less. They just went on. No one ever mentioned anything to us. I knew somewhere that it was not illegal to offer poker online, but the problem was the money. How do you put money in? They had to circumvent that. The thing that made everything collapse was Black Friday.

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It was a horrible day. I had been building something for over four years. I was single, working sixteen hours per day, every day, to make this happen. Instead of hiring people, we reached out to other people who could negotiate for us. It was a franchise. We had people in Portugal, Spain, and other regions. They scouted players and were the front people for Poker Icons. We signed the poker player. If a player got a deal from Full Tilt for €150,000, we took a cut from that, from 10% to 50%. If we had an agent representing Spain, he got a cut from our cut. It was a big network.

Black Friday came.

 

I was having dinner and my CFO, Jonas, emailed me. He is a very strict guy who never swears. The header of the email was "we are fucked." If Jonas writes that, it means we are massively screwed. I clicked on the mail and the links to Full Tilt and PokerStars. A big FBI logo came up on the screen. My inbox started flooding with emails from companies saying "contract canceled, force majeure." Everything I built in four years was gone in four hours. There was no money. I told Jonas to take out all the money we had in the player accounts to protect ourselves. I told our players to do the same. Jonas was reluctant, but I said this was going to spread fast. We managed to get out roughly 90% of the money before everything was blocked. The players were happy I contacted them immediately. That was the end of that venture.

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It was super fun. I traveled all over the world. The players were young, earning millions of euros. They had no concept of money. One player called me from Amsterdam. He said he lost his bag in a taxi and the camera we gave him was gone. I said to just buy a new one. He said that wasn't the problem; there was half a million euros in the bag. He had taken a random taxi off the street. I told him his money was gone. His comment was, "That's okay. I had a stake in another player who came second, so I'm sort of even." Then he hung up. He just lost half a million euros.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: How did you bring yourself back up after that crash?

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Lars Kollind: It was a massive punch in the stomach. I didn't do anything for two weeks. I just sat and stared into the wall. I didn't know what to do. After two weeks, I got a phone call from Thomas at Bet24. He said they wanted me to come over and manage the online poker department. That was my first entry into online gaming. Until then, I had been dealing with live events, media, marketing, and PR.

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I utilized this by building a sponsored team for Bet24. It was supposed to be twenty-four players. We were building it up with players from Canada and the Nordics, like Jesper Høgh. The plan was to build this up. That also came to an abrupt ending because about a year and a half in, Kindred bought us. They didn't keep the Bet24 brand. They acquired all the players and closed the brand down. It was sad because we worked hard to build the brand via players and PR.

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I managed to increase the profit by 8% in a declining poker market in the Nordics, which was unheard of. Maybe that was why Kindred bought us; they saw us as a threat. Bet24 had a Danish license, one of the first to operate legally in Denmark. We were also one of the first to launch a mobile app. I sent out a press release saying we were available in sixteen countries. The same day, PokerStars sent a press release saying their app was available in two countries. If you Google it, the press releases were mixed into one. It was a fun "how I got you" moment against the big guys.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Did you see the mobile revolution happening? Did you expect this?

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Lars Kollind: Yes, for sure. Casino was already out there with LeoVegas, but poker hadn't really come to the app yet. It became very big.  PokerStars continued, and then they crushed it later on with their poker app, which was amazing. It's still a fantastic tool if you want to play poker online, PokerStars and GG Poker as well.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Looking back at all your years in the industry, what do you think have been the biggest regulatory or technical movements that you've seen?

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Lars Kollind: First of all, very clearly, back in the day when I started at Bet24, there was very little regulation. There was some regulation, you needed a license, but when it comes to compliance and what you can say, you could use the word 'win'. You could say 'become a millionaire'. There was no regulation on what you could tell people. Nowadays, it's very strict. You cannot use the word 'become a millionaire'. What you can do, if someone wins a big jackpot, is brag about that someone won a big jackpot at your casino. You cannot do it beforehand because that's too enticing. The math is in the casino's favor, so to tell people they're gonna win would be a lie. Now people are taking it very seriously and treat it as a business. That shift has taken some time, but it's one of the major ones. You can see now at trade shows that it's very cleaned up and structured.

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The last major shift is all the mergers and acquisitions. It has gone from a lot of small or medium-sized brands to consolidation, and that's gonna continue. We're gonna see now, for example, maybe 300 game suppliers doing slots. I would guesstimate we will have 10 in ten years from now. They're gonna be bought up and merged together, like any other industry. Look at the car industry; you have five big ones. You're gonna have the same in the gaming industry in five to ten years.

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And there is also AI. AI is gonna play a big role in how we build the games, how we operate the games, and the actual art. The whole thing is gonna be done by AI, and it's already happening.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Is AI a new thing, or has it been going on for a while?

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Lars Kollind: It's been around for a long time, but right now it's coming to a point where AI is so advanced and so good you don't see a difference between the real and what's man-made. Now it's applicable and ready to use. Three or four years ago you could spot AI. Now it's impossible. I could be an avatar today and you would not know.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I agree to a certain extent. It's getting good. I started paying more attention and I do question whether something is real anymore. If it's a cartoon or an avatar, they need to be sophisticated, but they can fool you.

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Lars Kollind: They can fool you. People are getting scammed left and right. I heard a story in Malta about an old lady called by the prime minister and scammed out of her pension. It's easy to create an avatar that looks exactly like me, put my voice on it, and then I can be on a mountain or in Vegas in a clip like this. You would never tell the difference.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: This is an interesting conversation, but I wanted to come back briefly. You said there are 300 gaming providers now but there will be 10 in ten years. One of my greatest concerns is why are there so many providers of the same type? Why are there 100 game providers? Why are there 100 payment providers? How different are the games? I understand they are cultural and you need localized solutions, but do you need 100 companies for this?

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Lars Kollind: No, you don't need 300. The games look pretty much the same. Everybody's copying everybody. You have so many book games or Egyptian games; they're all the same. You don't need it. The thing is, it's still in a phase where it's lucrative to start. People start a game studio and do slots, and they are just waiting to be big enough to be bought up. There's no longevity for them. They're just waiting to be bought, then they sell and move on to start a new one. You have the same with operators. You have the serious big ones in Europe, and then so many small ones because it's easy to put up a site, get some suppliers, pull up the games, and do some marketing.

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People are taking chances, putting it up, and trying to make as much money as possible. Many inflate their numbers by giving out bonuses. Once they reach a certain EBITDA, they can sell the database and the company. Some stay and use the casino brand. When you sell to a big operator, they use the same brand, or they just take the players and pay for what's inside. I saw a statistic last year: 189 new gaming suppliers launched. You can understand that is not sustainable. It's starting to slow down with game suppliers because it's saturated.

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But what we're seeing now is with payment suppliers. I have no idea where they're coming from, but it seems to be a new one every ten minutes. It's insane. My LinkedIn profile is fairly well-known. I get between three and five messages per day from a payment supplier. I'm not even employed; I have my own company working with AI-driven video content. They tell me their payment product is perfect for me. How can it be perfect for me? That tells me they do serial research and just blast out. This is a well-known problem in the industry. People are bombarded with scripted copy-paste messages hoping for one response in a thousand. I understand the concept, but it's very annoying. As soon as I read the first sentence and see the word 'payment', I delete it.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I assume that's what happens. Payments has become a keyword that you want to delete. As a commercial person, you really feel it.

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Lars Kollind: I wish LinkedIn could have filters. If I set keywords like 'payment' or 'SEO' that don't suit me, it could filter them to archives so I don't need to bother. I've seen many other people on LinkedIn suggesting the same. I doubt LinkedIn will do it, but they will have to take action. There are so many fake profiles on LinkedIn created to shoot out these AI-automated sales messages. It's not sales in any shape or form. It's really bad practice, shooting mass messages to everybody.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Do you think the industry is better now compared to when it started?

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Lars Kollind: Yes. It's better in that it's a more secure place to work, and it's a much safer environment for the players. If you play on a safe, licensed site, you are safe. Is it more fun than ten or fifteen years ago? Debatable. Fifteen years ago it was a bit of a wild west. The business was just starting out, learning by doing. We made so many mistakes, but we had a lot of fun. It was crazy fun. So yes, it's good and better now, but it was probably more fun back then. Maybe it's good that I'm soon 50; if I started back then I would be drained after two days.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Do you think iGaming is still gonna be a good place in ten to twenty years?

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Lars Kollind: Yes, I think so. I think it's gonna be a very good place. We are going in the right direction, most leaders in the industry are realizing that the only way to keep the industry growing is to have a sustainable and trustworthy business. You need to be a serious business to survive. The things we did fifteen years ago, you can't get away with today.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: In a previous interview, you said iGaming being regulated is a good thing. There's a feeling on the market that there is overregulation. Too many barriers and things to think about. The cost of being regulated is getting out of control, which forces some operators to go offshore.

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Lars Kollind: If I had to pinpoint it, I would say the governments of certain countries or some US states have become greedy because they realize how much tax they can earn. Look at the Netherlands now; they're debating or have implemented a higher tax rate for operators and suppliers, and that's gonna backfire. The higher the tax rate, the more black market we'll see and the less the government will earn. We're going through a phase where they're trying to find the balance of how much tax they can get without people giving up and going back to the black market.

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You can see Germany is struggling hard right now because they have crazy rules. You need to have your games certified with GLI. Then when you go to the operator, you need to get them reapproved again by the same body, GLI. You're going in circles, taking way too long. I went to a panel in Munich and discussed this with GLI in the audience. To me, it's just stupid and takes way too long, making it hard to operate in Germany. Germany used to be a fantastic market before regulation. It's still a good market, but it takes a lot of patience to get your games up and profitable.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I also remember you saying it's very good to be the first in a regulated market. Can you explain why?

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Lars Kollind: You get good visibility because you can ride on that PR-wise, that you are the first in the market to be regulated. Look at Brazil; as soon as it started to become regulated, you saw that Kaizen and Betano were extremely fast to go for it, and now they are by far the biggest in the market. The reason is you build trust very quickly. Players that were playing in the unregulated market might have been defrauded, not gotten money on time, or had big wins never paid out. Now they can play on a serious site. The other reason is first-mover advantage; you learn the rules. The first regulation is normally not set in stone. If you are in there, your compliance team follows and implements the new rules as they go. If you come last, you have a big hurdle to break through all the noise from operators already there.

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First to market is always good. You show the government you take this seriously, and they will treat you well. You show the players you take them seriously, so you build trust and they play on your site. It will cost you more in taxes, but you might acquire many more players. It will even out. Just look at the numbers of what Betano is doing in Brazil; it's off the chart.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: They have been really good in Romania as well. They really set their foot.

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Lars Kollind: Kaizen overall as a group is crushing it. But just in Brazil, they are massively big.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Let's talk about sales. I know you posted about how much you love sales. You've been doing this for almost two decades.

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Lars Kollind: I've been doing sales since I was 15.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Why do you like it?

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Lars Kollind: It's not for everybody. For me, it came naturally. I like how you can get things done by not convincing, but by explaining. You take a product or solution and explain to another person or company why it is good for them. The most important thing about sales is to ask questions. If you have a product that might not be for everybody, ask as many questions as possible in the conversation. In gaming, it could be which market is most important, which demographic you are targeting. Based on these questions, you structure down and offer something they want. It's not rocket science. If you ask these questions, you know what the other person wants, and then you can offer it to them. A bad salesperson doesn't listen to the customer and just says their product is the best and you need to have it. That gives you nothing; no one will buy it. That is sometimes hard to convey.

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Sales is in everything you do on a daily basis. You need to put your son to bed; you need to convince him to go to bed. How do you do that? You convince him it's good for him because if he doesn't, he'll be tired tomorrow. Sales is through everything. If you master sales—not the sleazy car salesman style, but on a higher level—you are gonna flourish in life.

 

People sometimes look down and say, 'oh, you're in sales, you're one of those annoying people.' But they don't understand that they are using sales every minute of the day. Every phone call you make, when you book a doctor's appointment, you are using sales because you want the first appointment.​ Right? You don't want to wait six weeks. So you talk to whoever is at the reception to make an appointment as fast as possible. That is sales. Everything is sales, and people need to understand this. Master sales, and your life is gonna be much easier.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: What do you think about the saying 'people love to buy but hate to be sold to'? Is it true?

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Lars Kollind: That's absolutely true. No one likes to be sold to. And you shouldn't sell. There's a misconception that selling is calling people and telling them 'buy this, buy this, buy this'. No. That's not the case. You call up, be polite, and then you just ask them questions. If it turns out in the sales call that my product or solution is not for you, then I'm gonna tell you: I'm sorry, but you don't need my product. And then you move on. You can force someone to buy something because they are not gonna be happy. When they're not happy, they're gonna tell ten people.

 

But if you ask the right questions and your product correlates with what they need, and they buy it and walk away happy, they're gonna tell hundreds of people and you get referrals. It's not about pushing someone to do something they don't want to do. It's about making them understand that this is something they need. That's a big difference.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I appreciate that. I've been in situations where nothing comes out of a conversation, but they explain to me what they need. They say, "The product is like this. I need this. If you have this, call me. I will get it." Funnily enough, the most trust I have ever built is when I told someone, "You know what? I think you're right. This is not a fit for you, but I know this other solution. Why don't you try this?" Then you have a completely different relationship. Even if you don't make a sale then, the door is open. You can come back in the future and say, "Hey, listen. Not sure if you remember, but you needed this. I have it. Are you interested?" And they say yes.

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Lars Kollind: There have been occasions where I've been talking to people and realized I don't have in my portfolio what they want. Let's say they wanted skill games or live games. I don't have that. So I said, "You're only focusing on live games. I understand. I'm not gonna bother you. But I would recommend you to this company because I think their live games are fantastic." They say thank you so much, and they talk to that person. Then maybe in five years when they start implementing slot games, they come back to me because I already built trust. We are friends. We say hello at trade shows for five years. That is important.

 

Even if someone doesn't buy from you, keep in contact. Just say hello at trade shows. Have a coffee. Don't make everything business. Try to build a relationship. Relationship is everything. Once you have the relationship, that person might move to another company five years from now, and your partnership comes to fruition.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Is there a quick list of do's and don'ts you would recommend?

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Lars Kollind: Absolutely. Do not be afraid to pick up the phone. What's going on right now? You have all these Gen Z's. It's called an iPhone. It's not called an iText. So pick up the phone and talk to people. Ask them. You can send an email, but you have no idea why they don't reply. So pick up the phone, and they will respond by saying, "Hey Lars, I'm busy, or I'm home sick. Can we talk the next day?" Fine. Then you know why they don't respond. That is the first thing. Once you have the opportunity to talk, even on Teams, instead of chatting for hours, just say, "Listen. Do you have five minutes? We can call each other and wrap this up." It takes five minutes. Much easier.

 

Then you have a conversation like normal people. That is something that has been lost over the last ten years. People use the phone as a text machine, and that's horrible.

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Then, ask questions because you need the information to make the right decision and to inform the potential client. If I had to measure a sales call in percentage, I probably talk 10% and let the customer talk 90%. I only talk in the beginning when I ask questions, and at the end if it's suitable to close the deal or say the product is not right. The rest is the customer talking to me. You need to engage in the conversation. It's not you trying to push something.

Do not be afraid of telling the customer that they are wrong. You don't need to be rude, but you can tell them, "Based on what you have told me, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe you should look at it this way." You open the perspective of the customer so they understand where you're coming from.

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A major 'don't' is not doing your research. If you plan to call, email, or have a phone call with someone, do research. It takes five, ten minutes. Go on their website. Check their main core. Read their mission statement. Check what they want so you understand the value of the company. What are they most focused on? Once you know that, go on LinkedIn, check the CEO. What has he posted lately? The biggest mistake people do is CRO research. They have a list of tier one customers and just do serial research. They think, "This is a big customer we need," and just chase them.

When people say, "Send me over information. I'll have a look," that is 99.9999% a no. So when the client says that, ask, "What kind of information have I missed in this phone call that you need to see right now?" Then they open up again, and you keep talking until you have the correct information.

 

It's an art to sell, but if you learn the basics of asking the correct questions and let the customer make the decision based on their own answers, it's not that hard.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: What if the customer doesn't wanna talk to you? How do you close somebody who is difficult to reach?

 

Lars Kollind: If they are difficult to reach and I think they are a good fit for my product, but they refuse to respond to my messages on LinkedIn or emails, I don't try too many times. It's time-consuming. There are so many companies out there. You don't need to waste your time on just one. But if you think you have a perfect product for that company, get a referral. Always get a referral.

 

Find out who the CEO is connected to on LinkedIn. Talk to a friend of yours who is friends with the CEO and have them make an introduction. An introduction is gold. Once you have an introduction from someone else, that person has vouched for you, and you are in the conversation.

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If you're gonna succeed in sales, you cannot just have ten hot leads and keep pounding them to sign the contract. Don't do that. Just send a reminder once every two weeks. While you do that, make sure you constantly fill your sales funnel with new leads so you never run out. You will have drop-offs. Clients will say yes and then change their mind two weeks later. They're gone. Don't take it personally.

 

Build your sales funnel so you constantly have new leads. Keep track of what's going on on LinkedIn. If you see a company signed with another company, reach out to them. It's a constant evolution. Have 200 hot leads, 200 warm leads, and cold leads. For a cold lead, reach out once every six months with a simple "How is it going?" That's it. If they respond and say they're ready, brilliant. If not, leave it. Don't keep pushing people. If you push people, they will stop responding.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: You push them away.

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Lars Kollind: You push them away. It's like going on dates. Don't push too hard.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I'd like your thoughts on personal branding. Some people say it's important. Some say it's vanity metrics. Where do you stand?

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Lars Kollind: If you're gonna work in marketing or sales, your personal brand is mega important. It lowers the trust barrier when you contact someone. The more you do, the more articles you're in, the more panels you're on, the more posts you make on LinkedIn, the more people see your name. I try to make my posts fun to read.

 

I saw LinkedIn as a good opportunity early on. Back then, LinkedIn didn't have a button to say you didn't know a person, so you couldn't get blocked. I typed in the keyword 'CEO iGaming' and just added people all day. I had the title CEO then, so people accepted me. I built a big network fast.

 

Constantly share anything happening in your life or any thought worth sharing. The more you build, the more people see your name. When you contact them, even if they don't know you, they have seen your name somewhere. They will probably accept a meeting or a call.

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If you have your personal brand built right, you will get a new job or at least get to the first stage of a sale. You skip the barrier of "I don't know this person." You skip five steps.

Narcis Gavrilescu: It opens the door.

 

Lars Kollind: To everything. Sooner or later, it goes the other way around. I don't chase to be on panels; I get invited because I have a well-known personal brand. It snowballs and rolls on by itself.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: You have the momentum.

 

Lars Kollind: Why we have this podcast right now is hopefully because you find me interesting, but also because of my personal branding. If I didn't have my name out there, you would not know who I was. There are many people in high leadership positions people don't know about. If they posted a few times, it would go really fast for them. The CEO of MGM is well known, but a VP of sales or marketing can easily accelerate their career by building a personal brand.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: To have a pleasant conversation with you, I went through your previous interviews, posts, and articles you've been mentioned in. It makes the conversation much more fluid than a simple "Hi, how are you?" It builds context and relevance. You clearly have momentum and have been in iGaming a long time. I saw you shifted towards an AI project geared for iGaming. What was your thought process behind it?

 

Lars Kollind: My wife has been in social media and marketing and decided to start a company that utilizes AI for video content. For me, it was an easy decision. I invested in it. mConvert was registered in April, and we already have one deal with Square in the Air PR from SITA. It's a really cool video we did together. I reached out to Robin at Square in the Air, and we did a fantastic video.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Congratulations.

 

Lars Kollind: Thank you. We're talking to other game providers, platforms, and operators. The gaming industry is perfect for this because there are so many slot launches, trade shows, and events. I find it strange that gaming companies invest maybe 50,000 or 100,000 in a stand at ICE, which is very expensive. You need to design it, fly in staff, and spend a ton of money. Then you only do one LinkedIn post saying, "Hey, we are attending. Meet us." That doesn't correlate. If you're gonna spend all this money, you need something engaging to get people to your stand and book meetings.

 

You can utilize AI content in a cooler way to stand out on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter. You can create a video of flying through space and landing in Lisbon. That will catch people's eyes. Even if you spend a bit more on an AI video than a still picture, you will get much more attraction and engagement pre-show, and more visitors to your stand. It makes sense to work with the gaming industry.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Are you looking at any other opportunities to invest in? Is there anything interesting for you out there?

 

Lars Kollind: There are a few. I'm very selective. I'm not a big VC investor with billions. I need to be careful. But if something cool comes around, I will look at it. It needs to be something I see as profitable in the future, preferably within AI that matches my iGaming background. I want to invest in things I understand. Otherwise, I'm just a silent investor who doesn't understand the business.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Last question. How would you like to be remembered in iGaming history?

 

Lars Kollind: I would like to be remembered as a hardworking, inspirational leader.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: I really appreciate that about you. When I was watching you, you answered straight to the point, which is contrary to what we are often trained to do in sales.

 

Lars Kollind: I don't fluff around. I just say what I think, and that's it. It makes things so much easier.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: I very much appreciate that. Ladies and gentlemen, Lars Kollind. Thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it. Stay tuned, everybody, for more from iGaming History.

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Lars Kollind: Thank you.

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