Kelly Kehn

iGaming History, Episode 14 Transcript

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Hello everyone. Welcome back. This is iGaming History. This is iGaming history. Let's just put it like that. I have the absolute delight today to be joined by Kelly Kehn. Kelly, thank you. I really appreciate this. Absolutely thrilled and honored to have you on the show. How are you today?

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Kelly Kehn: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. I'm good. Thank you very much.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Very good. Very good. Kelly, before we go into the details of your iGaming history. I wanna know who was Kelly Kehn before all of this, you know? Who was Kelly Kehn, who was young before the Jockey Club. What were you looking for back then?

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Kelly Kehn: I don't know that it's that exciting. I grew up in Ohio in a small town in Ohio. When it was time to go to university, my parents gave me a six-hour radius. By car. Okay. And that's not that big in America. That's not that far. Okay. So I only looked at schools that were six hours away. Not that I wanted to leave home, I think I just had, I was always [00:01:00] sort of independent.

 

And the school that I loved, that I looked at was University of Kentucky. And so that might be a good segue into, I went to school at the University of Kentucky. They're a big basketball school, so I immediately fell in love with college basketball.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Okay.

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Kelly Kehn: It did not hurt that they won the national championship the year that I started, so that was really fun. Good. And, you know, those players go on to play in the NBA and you see them, you know, on TV, which is really fun, fun to be part of. 

 

And. If I can be frank, everyone who lives in Kentucky in some way, shape, or form is related to the horse racing industry.

It is their greatest export. There are horse farms, there are horse breeders, there are horse races, and every career that you decide to go in, in some way, shape, or form will touch horse racing. I studied communications and advertising, and my first job out of school was with the Jockey Club. And the Jockey Club is similar to what it is in Europe. It is the [00:02:00] regulator of breeding, the rules, and everything else. So that was a really fun, you know, landing spot I had.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I've read you saying that you had the best boss in your career? What made you say that?

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Kelly Kehn: He was great At the Jockey Club, you mean?

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yeah.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I mean, he continues to be great. But I never thought that there were people out there that go above and beyond just their regular working day, right? Like. This particular person during our working day would take me to breeding farms so I could learn about the breeding side of things. That wasn't part of my job description in any way, shape, or form, but obviously it helps you, any life experiences help you. He put me on the notes team at the Kentucky Derby. Right? So I was in the press box with all these journalists from, you know, national news.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Okay.

Kelly Kehn: To, you know, help with the notes for all the [00:03:00] stories that were coming out. And those stories come out literally, you know, every few seconds, that sort of thing. So, that was an experience that I never would have gotten on my own. So it's, I think, I think I would say he was one of the best bosses I ever had. 'Cause he held the door open in so many different ways that he didn't have to, that was not required, right.

 

So, my view and my perspectives are totally different because of that, because of the people I got to meet while doing that, because of what I saw and learned while I was doing that, and just the trust I think I was given.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Hmm. When you look back, did you have a moment or when did you realize that you are really good at bringing people together?

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Kelly Kehn: Oh. I am not sure about that. I think one, maybe back to my comment about being independent. I've done two different immigrations. So I moved from the US to Canada in 2004. My [00:04:00] now husband is Canadian, so I moved to be with him. And then I started working for a sportsbook in Montreal at that time. And then I took a relocation to England, which is where I live now. So doing that kind of thing, you really have to, one, you have to be open to different ways of living, I guess, ways of living, different people, different cultures. And that was always exciting to me. Even moving from Ohio to Kentucky, that was a whole different world, right?

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So when you do that, I think you're much more open. And you need to make friends, right? You're moving to a completely different space without a community, so you have to do that. So I don't know that there was a particular moment in time.

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But that certainly helped me. And then when we started the All-In Diversity Project in 2016. We were talking about stuff that nobody else was talking about, and we were the crazy people in the room, right? And you really gotta believe what you are saying if you are [00:05:00] walking into a room like that, right? So nobody, there were one or two articles about sort of women in leadership out there.

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Nothing was really happening in our space on that. Nobody was even worried about it. So, you know, for us to come in and say, this is a major problem, this is what we're doing to fix it, people were like, oh, okay. I didn't really think it was anything. So, you know one is the independence and having to build community. But I think two, when that happened in 2016 and '17, that exercise of going through, okay, we are going to be the one saying crazy things. How are we going, you know, how do you sort of personally take that on and continue to do it, right?

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So, you know that people, people like to buy ideas, you know, and people like to hear different, different things like that.

So that certainly, certainly helped, I think.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Yeah, I, I had Sharon in a previous episode and she did tell me that in this industry at least, people buy people.

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Kelly Kehn: Yes, totally believe that. I don't know if it's in just our industry, but I think they really want to know that you're behind it and they really wanna sort of sense, you know, ideas that you're bringing to the table.

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Kelly Kehn: And in terms of personal brand, it, it does a lot.

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Gavrilescu: Wonders actually.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Tell me about when you realized that you belong in the gambling industry.

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Kelly Kehn: I don't really know. I think, I mean, when you get into horse racing, horse racing is still in my blood. I love it a lot. It's a really beautiful experience when you're at the races. And it's a very accessible experience. So anyone can be a VIP at a horse race pretty much, right? If you're a young child and you want a jockey's autograph, that's available to you, right?

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Like that's not always available in some professional sports. So in terms of professional sports, I really [00:07:00] loved that. And then my second role really in life, when I moved to Montreal, was working for a sportsbook. I can't remember a day that I felt like I was working. Like it was just so fun and there were smart people and we loved being together.

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And we had the autonomy to try new things. I mean, this was like the early 2000s where the internet was fairly new. There weren't tons of things like online sports betting out there, so you know, why not try it, right? Like, you know, cut the path. So we did so many fun things. And with great people.

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I think this industry in general is very collegiate. I'm proud of that, and I think that what makes it really hard to leave is because you do make so many good friends. It doesn't feel like we're, you know, we are focusing on entertainment and, yeah, it's great. That's global.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: This is just off the top of my head 'cause I remember I was listening to a video [00:08:00] from Alex Tomic a couple of days ago, and he was mentioning that the industry does have a bit of a stigma and it does. Yeah. But sometimes this prevents us from attracting the best talent. Do you feel the same?

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Kelly Kehn: Sure do. Yeah. I think there's, there's a stigma, but I think we also shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit because if you look at any job description and you put "iGaming experience required" I think all of us have benefited from that who are on the inside, you know? Oh yeah, I did, I, I work for this big sportsbook, or what, you know, that sort of thing. Right? And it puts you ahead of other candidates when we didn't go to school. You know, we don't have some specialized degree in iGaming, right?

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We use that to our advantage, and we don't think about, you know, when we are hiring, you know, what those outside perspectives can be. So I think it's a combination. [00:09:00] One, yes, we have to overcome the stigma. And two, you know, we benefit from that sort of closed network often.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Share your POV with me here a bit. So you moved through operator marketing, promotions. Yeah. Loyalty, strategic planning, all these sorts of things. Does that make you like superhuman? Do you operate at a different level? Do you see things differently?

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Kelly Kehn: No. Not at all. In fact, I think, like I said, when we started back in the early 2000s, we were trying everything. But in order to be able to try everything, you really have to just understand people and what they want. Right? And that requires listening. That requires trying new things, getting feedback, all the things, right? And yes, looking at data. But there's nothing superhuman to it. And in fact, if you think it is something like that, you know, you're sort of getting a little bit too far away from the basics.

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Kelly Kehn: So, no, I think [00:10:00] basics, basics still, to this day, ring true.  Listen, get the customer feedback, you know, and adjust accordingly.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Do you feel like you see or understand something about people that most others don't?

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Kelly Kehn: I don't think so. No. I wish I had a really good answer for that. But I think people, people are people, and if you're open-minded, I think maybe what I'm more sensitive to than other people is awareness about them coming from different perspectives, because I really appreciate that. Right? I spent a lot of years pushing that, right? That new perspectives are what we need. That's how you get innovation. That's how you succeed at life, right? And if we don't, you know, for me that's really, really important: you can learn from everybody, right? It doesn't matter if they're just entering the industry, if they come from a different [00:11:00] background than you, if they never went to university, you can literally learn from everyone, and I don't think that's abnormal.

 

I think everyone has that in them. I'm just, I think, maybe more sensitive to that because of sort of the career path that I've chosen.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: What was the first moment when you thought, "I can change the industry and I can actually make it better"?

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Kelly Kehn: Well, listen, I, I had a coach in between my sort of employment and then I had my first child, and that changes a lot in people. So I had a coach at that point and they're like, "What do I actually want to do?" You know, what's, because sometimes when women have children, myself, for example, you, my career was everything, right? That, that's who defined me. That's, we had relocated a few times before the career, that sort of thing. And then you have a child and you're suddenly someone else.

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Or people have other expectations of you. So at that moment, I had a coach to sort of [00:12:00] redefine how I was gonna take my career forward, which was amazing. I would recommend it to everyone. Everyone should have a coach. And that's how All-In was born, basically, right? So I had always supported women.

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I wanted to see more people of different backgrounds in leadership in our space. Because I did like it so much. I loved the space and I saw people coming through that maybe weren't given the best chances. 'Cause we weren't talking about biases or glass ceilings or anything like that. Right.

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So I think that was probably the most distinct moment. But I mean, "changing the industry" to me sounds extreme, right? It was just that I saw a gap where we could fix it, right? We could level the playing field and it was very clear to us how we were gonna do that.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Do you think that there are invisible barriers inside gaming companies, especially for women and underrepresented [00:13:00] talent?

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Kelly Kehn: Yes. It's changing, it's getting better. There always will be. That's just how humans operate, right? We like people who look like us and act like us, and we talk a lot about, oh, culture fit. I still see people saying, you know, look, I'm looking for somebody who wants to go have a beer on Friday, you know, when they're job hunting and things like that.

 

And we don't talk enough about what those people are adding to the culture. Right. So if they come from something different, maybe they don't necessarily wanna hang out on a Friday, but they're wicked at, you know, business intelligence or something like that. Right. Like, they're gonna add to your culture.

 

We're not talking enough about neurodiversity and how different people work. Yeah. And environments that are important to them and make them sort of perform at their best.

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So I would assume, I'm not in a big company anymore, but I'm gonna assume there's loads of people that could probably contribute to that conversation around how we can make work-life better for them.

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I mean, one of the things [00:14:00] is work-life balance. That's all a bit of nonsense, right? Like we bring our outside life into work and we bring our work life home.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yes.

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Kelly Kehn: And sometimes we're different people and that sort of thing, but I think we just have to be a bit more open to the fact that, you know, we all come with different baggage, with different skills, with different things to contribute.

Kelly Kehn: So without recognizing that, of course there's gonna be barriers. Of course. But people are much more aware, which is really positive.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Tell me about how you started All-In, like what, what made you start it with Christina?

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I told you I did some coaching and we sort of got to the point where. I knew that there was a gap in business. They weren't talking about this. And then we asked ourselves why they weren't talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, women in leadership, underrepresented, all those things. [00:15:00] And it was because we thought it was because they didn't have the tools to make it an initiative internally.

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So if you're gonna go to the boardroom and say, "This is a problem, let's change it," how do you know what's a problem? What are we losing because we're not acknowledging it? And so we decided that, you know, we were going to give businesses the tools so that they could bring it to the boardroom table.

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Lots of benchmarking, lots of data collection, lots of reporting, all those things. So we did that, but that took us two years to set up and it took a whole lot of partners helping us to do that. So, I mean. We started in 2016 talking to everyone, working with universities, setting up the framework for that, you know, with no money.

 

At all. And, you know, some people were like, "Yeah, I really like it. Let me help you support, but my company's not gonna give you any money or anything like that." So a couple [00:16:00] companies, we had good friends internally, said, "Yeah, we'll, we'll help you financially or whatever."

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So that was okay. And then 2018 came. And the British media showed up at ICE.

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Gavrilescu: Yeah. Tell me, tell me about that. 'Cause I was reading some articles and it kind of portrays it in a very, very bad way. But I wanna hear the actual story from your point of view.

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Kelly Kehn: So a couple of points. First, the British media hate gambling. As we've seen.

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Gavrilescu: Surprising.

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Kelly Kehn:  And they love to hate it. So to Tomic's point, there's lots to overcome, right? Like they, so you, okay, we have to overcome that. Two, I really believe one of my friends and probably one of your future guests, if she hasn't been on here, is Carolina Peltz, and she believes that we make our own luck, right? We continue this slog, we just continue the grind and if we believe in [00:17:00] it, there will be opportunities to come, right? And Me Too was kind of happening. It wasn't happening in gaming. It was sort of a celebrity social media campaign. And the day before ICE, or the week before ICE, there was something called, I think it was the President's dinner at a hospital here in the UK, and they had been sort of outed as it was all this sort of old boys club.

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There were hookers and it was not a nice situation. So that sort of, while that sort of perked up all the, it was a perfect storm, right? The media knew that this was something that people cared about: the oversexualization of work life. And they came to ICE and we were the only ones talking about it.

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 So, and we had this teeny tiny little stand. It was tiny, in like the hallway, and we're talking about it. And we were just two people. And so you'll read articles where it was like it was an abandoned stand. Well, we were just two people. We couldn't have been on the stand [00:18:00] all the time.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Correct.

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Kelly Kehn: So I always laugh when I read things like that. But it was a perfect storm. But I really believe we had gone for two years talking to anyone and everyone that we possibly could about how important this was, right?

 

That we were not going in a direction that we were proud of. You know, there were very clear things that we could change. And thankfully ICE supported that. Right? And then one by one, the businesses also supported it because God forbid they don't want their family saying, "What's this? This is where you work.

 

Look, that's your stand, that's your company." And they weren't proud of that. And you know, there was a better way to take it forward. Right? And I think it's much better now. There are several events, companies that support business at a business event.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yes.

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Kelly Kehn: And, you know, understand that women are buyers. You know that people don't want to come in and just be entertained. Right? They're there to do a job.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: [00:19:00] Yes. I think there was a point where you said the same women are talking about the same problems with no action. Walk me a bit through that.

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Kelly Kehn:Oh, well, that, yeah. Okay. So before when we were starting All-In, I had sort of made the decision we were going to do that, support women in leadership, and I saw Christina at a, I think it was a Christmas drinks or something.

 

It was like a Women in Gaming Christmas drinks. And she was like, "This is like my 10th one. It's the same conversation over and over again." And I was like, well, why does it have to be like that? Like let's do something. And in fact, I had, I don't know why I did this, but I had scheduled a meeting with the UKGC.

 

And I didn't know anything about regulation at all. And I was like, how am I gonna go into this meeting? Because I don't know the regulator, I don't know how they think, I don't know what their culture is. I don't know how to approach it. And she did, so she did lots of [00:20:00] stuff with the UKGC. So she was like, "Well, I'll go with you, and, you know, we can sort of prepare for this."

 

And so I, that's what we did and that's just how it sort of happened because I was, you know. You need a yin to the yang sort of thing. Right, right. And I think people are much more successful, whether it be a mentor or a coworker or a co-founder or however that is, you need someone who knows what you don't know.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: And then you become a whole together.

 

Kelly Kehn: Yeah.

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Kelly Kehn: I mean, I think the greatest skill people can have is like knowing they can't do it all. You need people around you.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Yes. Tell me about the All-In Index, because that's become a very cool and very useful tool.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah, yeah. That's, that's what we worked on for two years. It's a benchmarking tool. It's a survey that businesses fill out.

 

It measures their employee base. It measures it [00:21:00] by seniority level, by vertical, by all kinds of things. Slices and dices who your people are. And the point of it is to hold the mirror up to places where you might want to focus.

 

So let me give you an example. Trading, sports trading.

 

Not very diverse. And maybe you can make your assumptions why: boys like sports, whatever that is. But that's actually not the case at all. What we found was the highest rate of recruitment was happening in sports trading.

 

So, and there was no other requirements besides, "You should hire my friend 'cause he likes rugby," or "Hire my friend 'cause he's mad about tennis." You did not have to go through risk management, any kind of degree like that. They were all gonna teach you once you got there. You just had to really know the players, know the sport, and you can come in and sort of understand.

 

And so if you are just hiring your friends and [00:22:00] refer-a-friend is really working in that particular sector, you're never gonna get out of that, right? So that's just holding a mirror up saying, okay, well what's going on here? Right? Like, if it's, I think it's funny, if we look at just women and men, more women graduate with risk management from universities globally than men.

 

 So we should have, or they go, you know, into finance or something like that, but we should have a good pool of not just men going into risk management in terms of sports.

 

But that just wasn't the case. So it was like, okay, well it's not that there isn't talent out there. Why aren't we getting them?

And, you know, that's what we found in one of the indexes.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Well, was there a result?

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I mean, the companies that understand that, when we start to put the analysis out, if they want to do something about it, that's up to them. You can't really impose values. All you can do is give them the [00:23:00] tools that they need to say, "This is important, this isn't important, and here's why. You should have diverse perspectives when you're managing risk, because you need someone to tell you no."

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yes.

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Kelly Kehn: I don't think that's right. You don't have that, if someone sees it, doesn't see it differently, then you have groupthink, which is going to lose you a shit ton of money. Pardon my French.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I agree.

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Kelly Kehn: You know, that's, that's, we put a lot of energy behind that to make sure that people understood the commercial and the internal cultural reasons for highlighting certain things like that.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: What do you think is the hardest truth about this whole diversity and inclusion in gaming that leaders still kind of avoid confronting?

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah, listen, I think it's been politicized. It doesn't need to be. But I do think the companies that have it as part of their value system will continue to do it regardless of politics. I think it's not something that's black and white and people like [00:24:00] black and white. So when you reduce it down to black and white then you get tokenism and hires that shouldn't be there because people think optics are important to someone, when that's not the case. So, you know, I think reducing it down only hurts us. With any social concept, you know, you can't reduce it down to black and white, but that's, humans sleep better at night when we can do that.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: You said that inclusion directly drives commercial success. What's a good example?

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Kelly Kehn: So there's lots of McKinsey studies, there's lots of recycled stats that go round and round. I mentioned one: managing risk better when you have different perspectives.But let's talk about startups.

 

When there are co-founders that come from different backgrounds, or genders or whatever it is, they tend to be more successful. There's all kinds of, you know, you reduce the churn in terms of your employee base. When they feel a sense [00:25:00] of belonging and are included in what they're doing, they stay longer.

 

You get more experience out of them. There's all kinds. I'm not super into recycling stats because I haven't done my research this week, and those change all the time and I think we should be promoting the good stories.

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Rather than just recycling old stats that are doom and gloom.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: Right. Tell me about your years with the SBC. Like you've been hosting, you've been talking to a lot of people. What does that teach you about the culture of our industry?

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Kelly Kehn: Listen, I joined SBC in November of 2019, and we all know what happened in early 2020, so I never really got to do an event with them. We did tons of online events. But I came in as a relationship director, so just bringing all the parts together. So you need speakers, or you need workshops, or you need sort of networking groups and all that sort [00:26:00] of thing to make an event.

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Kelly Kehn: It's as much work on the digital side as it is on the live side. So anyone who is thinking it's not, it's hard. It's even harder sometimes.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Why?

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Kelly Kehn: Because you know, who wants to show up on a Zoom call if you've got something to do, right? You say you're gonna do it and then, there's lots of apathy. You've really gotta make it exciting for people to show up if they're stuck at home, you know, in their jammies.

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I dunno, it's hard. It was hard. So, but then, you know, coming out of COVID, I think SBC were one of the first ones to start doing events, just sort of chomping at the bit. So we did get out and about, we got to do some events quite early on. I think it was a year maybe. So May of '21 is when they started back or something similar.

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Kelly Kehn: But it was really good just to see sort of the entire global industry because I did a number of [00:27:00] different regions digitally, which really prepares you when you go back into the live events 'cause you've sort of built a little network of people who were also sort of feeling like, "I gotta connect, but how am I gonna do this? Okay, I'll do this digital stuff and see how it goes." And in fact, out of my work with SBC, we started a network that I currently continue to manage called the SheEOs, which is female CEOs in the space globally. There's 180 something of us now, which is not enough, but it's great and it's a really supportive network.

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We started it because we were doing all kinds of networking things and at that time, which no one really talks about, but maybe you'll talk about it with Paris when you talk to her. I was talking to her and I said, "Oh, look at you. You're not alone anymore." And she said, "What, what are you talking about?"

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And I was like, "Jetta was the CEO of Entain. Shelly  had become the CEO of Casumo. Obviously Denise Coates was running Bet365. Amy Howe was the interim CEO at FanDuel." I was like, "Literally the biggest sports betting companies are being run by women right now, and no one is talking about it."

 

And she said, "Oh, I don't, I don't know if I know all those people." And I was like, "Oh, weirdly I do." And so then we, okay, let's get, she said she had done some other networking events with other CEOs in the space. She said we should do one with the women CEOs. So we did, and it's grown from there and it's, it's actually quite a good supportive network.

 

We see each other at live events. We've got a WhatsApp group and we do online stuff about two or three times a year, which is quite fun. So that came from SBC and all the digital networking we did. And yeah, it was great. It was great just to get that global perspective.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: This is really nice. You're really nice.

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Kelly Kehn: It's, it's really fun. And you know, I love SBC events to this day. I think they're [00:29:00] great. I think the one thing that sets them apart is that sort of all-inclusive feel that you get. You don't have to pay for the education. The content is top. There's food available to you and the networking.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: That's very important to people. The food.

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Kelly Kehn: It's very important.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: There's no food at an event, people complain.

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Kelly Kehn: Or if you have to pay an arm and a leg.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Or that. Tell me about Defy the Odds. It's meant to support underrepresented founders. I know that you started it with Sue and Paris, based on a conversation in Curaçao.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yeah. Tell me how that happened. Give me your POV.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah, we were all sort of in a bit of transition, the three of us. We've been long-time friends, especially Sue and Paris have been very long-time friends. All in a place of transition. I was at Happy Hour and I knew they weren't going to be doing more investments in the upcoming future.

Kelly Kehn: So I knew that was probably what I was doing, was bringing them deal flow. So I thought that was, [00:30:00] I saw the writing on the wall, that that was probably gonna come to an end.

 

Happy Hour invested in iGaming, was a VC investing in iGaming companies. She had just left Pinnacle. Sue was considering retiring. We're not gonna let her do that. And Paris invited us down to Curaçao. Which, why would you say no to that? It's a beautiful country.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yeah.

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Kelly Kehn: So we went, we all went down there, and we started talking about sort of what's important to us and, you know,

Was startups and innovation. Right? Like for me, my North Star is supporting and breaking barriers, right? Like removing glass ceilings where, you know, where that exists. Paris was doing some angel investing, obviously had been advising startups for a long time, in her role at Pinnacle. And then outside of her role at Pinnacle, Sue had done the pitches for [00:31:00] SBC. She was doing a lot of work with startups on that side, making sure that they had a platform. So startups sort of fell in the center of it and we, having our unique perspective on the industry, just realized that it was on a path to become quite homogenous. That it was for people who might be privileged with time or money.

 

Lots coming out of the US because of sports betting, and the profile that it had there. Just realizing that we weren't gonna get true innovation. Lots of consolidation in the space too. So we saw the bigger companies eating up, you know, some of the other companies and said, well, it's time now.

 

We're gonna continue on this path that, you know, we support innovation as best we can, you know, for an industry that we really love.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: There's this belief in the industry that it's consolidating. I had Lars at some point, he was telling me that he thinks that within 10 years, from 300 game providers, we're gonna have [00:32:00] 10. It's happening with other verticals as well. And there is some talk out there that, you know, there's just not enough innovation.

 

We strap the word innovation on it, but it's not like actual innovation. What do you think? Like what are you seeing? Because you've been around long enough to see, and you're also having the deal flow, right?

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I don't think we have enough crazy ideas out there and we can blame that on regulation.

We can blame that on not enough outside perspectives or wherever it is. I don't see tons of crazy ideas. I see some good ideas. A lot of the good ideas come from people who don't have a historical perspective. So not knowing how to get that product to market, knowing how our sort of industry is structured with aggregation and all that kind of thing.

 

So good ideas can be sort of killed quickly because they don't have that historical understanding of how we got to where we are. So if you're gonna navigate now, you're gonna have to understand where we are now [00:33:00] and then, you know, how we're gonna change it in the future.

 

o yeah, I agree. Kelly Kehn: I think there will be lots of consolidation. I think there's not enough big tier one companies that are focusing on either entrepreneurship and encouraging their employees to spin off new ideas, and/or acquiring or investing in new ideas. It's hard because of regulation.

 

I don't think there's enough investors. I don't think there's enough new money coming into the space yet to fund some of the more radical ideas that are coming across because it's a lot of risk. There's lots of regulation involved if you invest in an early-stage company, and investors don't wanna go through that.

 

So, and I don't think there's enough partnership between regulation and the industry to understand that

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: that is a recurring theme.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I don't wanna blame regulation 'cause I think in some ways, obviously it does its job, or [00:34:00] legislation maybe is the right word, because they're just acting on the legislation.

 

But it's hard if you, in the US it's less than 5% you can invest into a company without going through the full regulatory process as with the company. So new startups can't take on that much without, you know, an investor willing to go state by state to get those licenses.

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Gavrilescu: Hmm. Yeah. It's...

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Kelly Kehn: it's prohibitive.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Yes, it is. I had Joseph Borg, he also came, and he said that regulation kind of tends to favor big players, but if you're a startup, it's almost impossible to go global or compete with somebody big.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. I mean, we've seen it time and again since the dawn of time. You start in a gray market, make your money and then move into the regulated space.

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It's happening right now.

 

Naris Gavrilescu: Yeah. When you look at the future and you see all these, like the [00:35:00] AI, new markets that people are testing out, new founders, what gets you excited?

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Kelly Kehn: I'm pretty excited about women's sport, the rise of women's sport globally and what that means for our industry. Not just football, but there's all kinds.

 

And it's getting media attention, sponsor attention, social media, all that type of stuff. So that's something I'd like to see more of, and I think it's very positive for our space. I think the knowledge of how to do social media and streaming well with actual humans, I think that's gonna be a big problem or opportunity in the future.

 

We're gonna see all these sort of AI twins and bots, and they're gonna get, they're gonna make mistakes obviously. But people who know how to do streaming and influencing well are gonna really succeed on that side of things. Obviously media and content ever-changing and always at the front of technology.

 

So that will be, in [00:36:00] general, a nice space to watch.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: What's some advice you would give for people who are coming into this space? They are entrepreneurs. They wanna come into this space. They wanna make a difference.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah. Come, come with your wild ideas, right? We need crazy ideas. Bring 'em, find people that will support you for no other reason than they like to hear new ideas, that sort of thing.

 

And support that kind of thing. That's hard to find. We've now, probably over the summer, we launched a community for startups, investors, and experts. And that is the idea, right, is like you can come in and find, okay, let's say information about KYC. Like not everyone is born knowing about KYC or something like that, right?

 

Something totally obscure, but you need to know about it, or regulatory stuff. There are people that can tell you instead of you spending the two years trying to figure it out yourself or reading things on the internet that may or may not be correct. So find that, find that group of people, mentors, people [00:37:00] that have been in and around the space that, you know, can help you go a little bit faster with trusted information.

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Narccis Gavrilescu: Is there anything that I haven't asked you but you think it's important?

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Kelly Kehn: I don't know. I would say for people who are considering entrepreneurship, who are thinking about this sort of nagging idea in the back of their brain, do it. Or at least sound it out. I don't think this industry lacks capability in any way, shape, or form.

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 I think we haven't done the invite right yet for entrepreneurs. If you are capable. Let me back it up one step. When we were talking about women in leadership almost 10 years ago, it was a risk. "I'm gonna have time off from my family. Like, what does that mean for my personal brand? Are people gonna think I'm gold-digging, ladder climbing, all those things," right? We de-risked that, right? Like, and I say "we" as an entire industry, right? Like we built the role models. Everyone can see who's doing it, you [00:38:00] know? They were kind and empathetic and also successful, you know, so we've done that. We've de-risked that.

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We need to do that for entrepreneurs now, right? Like it is a risk and it is a risk involving your own money and time, right? But the opposite side of it, the benefit is incredible: to own a company, to make it yours, and to take that vision forward is something that, you know, is inside all of us, really.

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So I think we need to de-risk that a bit, invite more people to that particular table and help them understand there are role models, there is money, there's resources, all those things. You just have to believe that you can do it and take it forward. I hope I make it very clear that this is something I care deeply about and will continue to care about.

Kelly Kehn: Thank you. and regardless of whether you wanna start your own company or you just feel like there needs to be more cheerleaders in your corner, [00:39:00] I, I hopefully have communicated that there are, and I will continue to do that. So, I don't know. I don't think there's too many secrets out there or misnomers.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: How would you like to be remembered in iGaming history?

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Kelly Kehn: Oh, I hate this question. I just want, just like at Defy the Odds we have one value and that's "no assholes." And I hope that carries forward. I don't wanna be an asshole. I don't want people to think we are. I think we should spread the opposite, because it is so collegiate.

 

We've got lots of friends and there are good, great people in this industry. So

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: I think that would be the case.

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Kelly Kehn: Okay, good.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: thank you, Kelly. I really appreciate it.

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Kelly Kehn: Thank you. What a talk. That was really fun. Thank you.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: I hope you liked it 'cause I did. I also get the chance to meet some really cool people.

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Kelly Kehn: Yeah.

 

Narcis Gavrilescu: And you are [00:40:00] definitely one of them.

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Kelly Kehn: Cool. Thank you. My pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

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Narcis Gavrilescu: Thank you to everybody watching. Thank you very much. We're gonna have some very interesting episodes coming soon, so stay tuned.